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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - Yellow Fronted
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Yellow Fronted

 
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Rodsam
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Joined: Jul 16, 2012
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:38 pm    Post subject: Yellow Fronted

Hi,
Could someone please clarify something for me.
Yellow fronted Kakarikis do they have a faint yellow patch behind the eye?
Yellow fronted Kakarikis do they have NO yellow patch behind the eye?
There seems to be some conflicting information/photos regarding this matter.
I have 2 yellow fronted hens 1 does not have a patch behind the eye and the other which is a cinnamon hen she does have a patch behind the eye.
I wanna keep the breeding right for these great little birds and not waste my time with Hybrids that are gonna breed me shit that i cant sell or get rid of.
cheers
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Steptoe
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Joined: Oct 06, 2004
Posts: 4507

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:44 pm    Post subject:

This has been discussed in the past in forums and in private.
Some believe a faint patch behind the eye is a sign of hybidisation, others dont.
I dont believe it is thu where hybidisation has taken place, yes.
One thing we do notice in our NZ native birds is local variation within species....class is our fantail...in the nth it is rather bright colour and as one goes Sth the length of the country gets browner or duller.

Either way, it comes back to a clean bright yellow crown ... no red or signs or reds or orange tinge to it...again the yellow crown can vary a little , from rather a bight clean yellow to a palish yellow, and again , like the red crown there is variation...deep crimson thru to a bright red crown.

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Rodsam
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:12 pm    Post subject:

they are both pretty clean on the crown which is good
i think the yellow patch comes out a bit more in the cinnamon than the normal
thx Steps
there is some confusion in this area
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Steptoe
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Posts: 4507

PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:07 am    Post subject:

Dont get me wrong..
the subject is still open, and I could be wrong in my belief, at this stage.

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Peter
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Joined: Oct 15, 2004
Posts: 599

PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:48 pm    Post subject:

Hi guys,

Personally I believe that a true Yellow crown has no yellow patch behind the ear. The reason why is that Buller never mentioned that in his descriptions.
In the description of the red fronted he clearly mentioned:
Quote:
Forehead, crown, and streak across the eye terminating on the ear-coverts deep crimson

Elsewhere he mentioned
Quote:
ear-spots


About the Yellow crown he only states
Quote:
A band of dark crimson connects the eyes, passing across the forehead, immediately above the nostrils; upper part of forehead and crown golden yellow;

There is never a mention of ear spots.

Also the accompanying illustrations never show something like that.
You can magnify the following picture
https://sites.google.com/site/mmslouisd/BullerNZ73mPlat.jpg

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/etexts/BulBird/Bul01BirdP016.jpg

See also head no 6 http://rsnz.natlib.govt.nz/image/rsnz_07/rsnz_07_00_0242_0000f_ac_01.html

The following is a checklist to determine if your yellow crown is pure or not. Anything that differs makes it suspicious of hybridisation.

General bodycolour: yellowish green (Redfronted has darkgreen)
Frontal band: Crimson red
Crown: Golden yellow without any staining of orange or red feathers
Extreme length male: 26,6 cm
Iris: pale Cherry Red (Red fronted: Cherry Red)
No eye spots
Eggs: length 2,16cm to 2,29cm, width 1,78cm tot 1,91cm. Tend to a round shape. Colour: stained yellowish white
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manders
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Joined: Mar 26, 2010
Posts: 120

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:39 am    Post subject:

I believe, the only way to know for sure is to see what variation there is in wild populations, the original type specimens used in the descriptions may have been just one extreme from a particular location. Other locations may show small or large differences, i think it would be unusual for a speces not to have a degree of variability.

From the wild photos i've been able to find, which isnt many, some show yellow patches, some don't.
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manders
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:02 am    Post subject:

This one for example shows a very feint yellow patch, admittedly its quite feint...


http://www.flickr.com/photos/26046024@N06/4184615538/
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Peter
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Posts: 599

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:21 am    Post subject:

manders wrote:
I believe, the only way to know for sure is to see what variation there is in wild populations, the original type specimens used in the descriptions may have been just one extreme from a particular location.


Buller examined hundreds, maybe thousand specimen from all over the country. If there was a variation he would have certainly mentioned it.
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Stumbler
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:45 am    Post subject:

As Steps says, discussed in the past and we'll probably never have a 100% definitive answer; however my close inspection of Wilds (down this way) all have no spot.
Birds that I currently breed from are free from any sign of a spot, these were chosen and bred, over many years for clean-green ears; I've seen many aviary birds elsewhere with a slight tinge of yellow.

Manders photo could be deceptive in that there is a shading of yellowishness seen in other areas of the bird; the feathers covering the actual ear of a kakariki are perhaps a little more sparse and could contribute to a lessening of green. Think

Sorry Rodsam...clear as mud!. Think
Maybe choose birds to breed that have the clearest ear area, and I think you'll find over time you'll end up with offspring with no sign of yellow.

Stumbler
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:03 am    Post subject:

There are variations in other species thay buller never mentions.
The golden yellow crown....
in all of our specimens the yellow is not golden yellow but a paler yellow.
Those with the deeper golden colour also tend to be darker in the body like a red crown, and have shown signs of hybridisation...
I saw some stuffed kakariki a while back in a museum....again the yellows where more pale yellow than a gold yellow.

The yellow in bullers here
http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/etexts/BulBird/Bul01BirdP016.jpg
Is not accuracte at all...it is far too yellow and there is way too much 'spilage' of red from the band going into the crown...it is should be a well defined line between the 2 areas...If I saw that bird, I would definately call it a hybrid...espec since it is so close to some of the known yellow hybrids we have had in the past.
Even the body colours are way off.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/26046024@N06/4184615538/
This is an excellent example of crown colour and the defined area. Even then that yellow would be on the darker side of the variation in the yellows between breeding lines.

Then when we get to the yellow kakariki in the wild around another members avairies in the Sth Island, they have no patch....
Many of our bird and replitile species have such variations between the islands, due to centuries and more of isolation.
And note the faint yellow tinging, espec to the breast colours.

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wyndara
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:44 pm    Post subject:

Rodsam, your cinnamon yellow crown will be from hybrid lines as all cinamon yellows in this country came out of cinnamon red crowns x yellow crowns. some show no ear patches some do but they have all come from hybrid breeding !!!!!! as have all the yellow crown pieds, sad but true!!! Hybrids have been in australia for at least 45 years. Its almost impossable to buy pure reds, yellows not so hard to find at this stage but that will change as the mutation blood filters through to the normal birds. WE as breeders need to find pure normal birds and build up numbers now. A big problem in getting breeders interested is the low price the normal birds are selling for compared to the mutations even if they are hybrids. A normal red or yellow crown youngster will only sell for $25-$35 each mutations much higher.
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pabloc
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Joined: Sep 26, 2007
Posts: 988

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:41 pm    Post subject:

Peter, could you please post a link to the original descriptions/manuscripts made by Buller?
I can't seem to find it and would like to keep a copy at hand.
Thx!

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Peter
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:37 am    Post subject:

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-BulBird-t1-g1-t1-body-d0-d42.html
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pabloc
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:31 pm    Post subject:

thx for the link Peter!
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