Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:42 am Post subject: Mismatched pair
I had a pair of Red fronted Kaks but sadly lost the female at the beginning of the year.
As the male was distressed on his own I immediately went out to buy a companion for him.
The pet shop i went to said they only had males and showed me a cage with young Red Fronted and Yellow Fronted Kaks in.
As they were all male I chose a Yellow Fronted so I could have one of each.
HOWEVER.....
My Yellow Fronted has turned out to be a hen and now they have paired up and she is on eggs!!! Pet shop obviously made a mistake.
I am very excited about my first baby Kaks but will I have problems selling them as they are hybrids?
Never Never cross red crown and yellow crown...
Breederers around the world have been campaining for the last decade or so to stop this, trying very hard and sucessfully to get pure breeds again.
This campain has been suprisingly sucessfull, thu still a way to go...
The last thing we (all around the world) is to have elcheap hybrids knowingly back in the market place.
These are a endangered spcies with very limited gentic blood lines. _________________ My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
I would strngly suggest you throw away the eggs and do not make a nest available to them.
If your intention is breeding then the best thing is to split the pair and get a correct partner for either of them, or for both.
the eggs are too far gone now to throw away (i will not kill an innocent life just because it is a hybrid).
I intend on placing the offspring in pet homes only. From what I have researched there isnt a great interest in Kaks here in the UK for breeding, most go to pet homes it would seem.
I was never actively intending to breed these hybirds and do hope to get a Yellow Fronted male.
My Yellow Fronted hen is a spectacular pied bird so I am hoping to get a pied cock to pair with her.
My question is - if i introduce a YF cock bird will I have to temporarily remove the RF cock to allow the YF pair to bond. And can the RF cock be then reintroduced (i do not want to sell the RF cock)
I intend on placing the offspring in pet homes only. From what I have researched there isnt a great interest in Kaks here in the UK for breeding, most go to pet homes it would seem.
Yes Even in the UK there has been a great effort by responsable breeders to get back to good breeding stocks.
The "pets" logic doesnt work....that is how the whole issue has placed the species at risk in the 1st place.
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the eggs are too far gone now to throw away (i will not kill an innocent life just because it is a hybrid).
Sry going to be blunt here...
yep that sounds the great moral road..solid arguement.
Or can be put another way...this is not a natural cross but artifially induced..be it by accident or not....And such logic artifically puts the species themselves at risk by continuing.
NZ Dept of Conservation, and before that the Wild life dept , Interal Affairs, had/has a Poltically correct, higher than thou policy of 'grandfathering ' out hybrids. Since the mid '60s to today, a huge issue of reintroducing capitive red and yellow back to the wild is because of hybrids...which if it wasnt for this PC BS we would have, like other countries , kakariki in our backyards.
Unlike horse/Donkey which are sterial, kakariki hybrids are fertial.
Another thing to consider....I assume that from your logic, the eating of free range eggs from the local farmer is a big no no right?
Once a breeder, moves their birds on they have NO control what those birds will be doing in the next 12 to 18 yrs.
To state that u will be moving on "just for pets" is a arguement made with absolutely no foresight. _________________ My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
Yes I eat free range eggs, from my own birds, but eggs are checked to ensure they are not developing. Any showing signs of embryo development are placed in the incubator to hatch.
With regards to good stock - at the recent UK bird show (luckily held close to me) the majority of the Kaks i saw were not good birds, mostly just random pairs that breeders of other birds had. Prices were very low too. I bought a hen but she didnt lats long and died, hence finding myself in this situation.
I would LOVE a YF male, but i fear finding on without travelling miles is going to be a nightmare, no where sells them and a lot of pet shop havent even heard of them.
This clutch I will let them rear (you never know, as it is the first clutch, they may not be successful), will endevour to place them responsibly and then search for a YF male.
p.s. all chicks will be closed rung for ID purposes
I can only repeat what others have said and please ask you to be responsible and not raise these hybrids. You do not know who will end up owning them or who will eventually breed from them, just adding yet more genetic junk into what is a very small breeding population in the uk.
I can only repeat what others have said and please ask you to be responsible and not raise these hybrids.
I am sorry but i will not knowingly kill the chicks possibly developing in these eggs. I cannot brush aside my morality in this instance.
I respect everyones opinions and fully understand why you are negative about hybrids and believe me when i say any chicks reared from this batch WILL be carefully placed.
You lost any claim to morality by allowing them to breed in first place, what you should do is step up and take responsibility for what you have done, correct the error and move on in a responsible way. Hiding behind some misguided, misplaced schoolboy sense of ethics is neither the mature or the correct thing to do. You allowed this to happen and you need to take responsibility for it. Don't compound your error by allowing these eggs to develop.
Manders pretty well sums up the thoughts and policies of the members of this web site, regardles of location.
Hybrids have been and ARE serious risk to to the surival to these endangered species.....Yes endangered and covered by CITES. _________________ My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
You lost any claim to morality by allowing them to breed in first place, what you should do is step up and take responsibility for what you have done, correct the error and move on in a responsible way. Hiding behind some misguided, misplaced schoolboy sense of ethics is neither the mature or the correct thing to do. You allowed this to happen and you need to take responsibility for it. Don't compound your error by allowing these eggs to develop.
Well you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.
I do however take issue with your very unkind comments lambasting my morality. I dont know how old you think I am but I am assuming by your very condescending manner that you see me as nothing but a child. I can assure you I am very much not a child. To attack someones moral integrity, someone of whom you know nothing about, saddens me deeply.
I feel no need to reiterate the fact this was not intentional as it seems that is just falling on deaf ears.
It is a shame that when someone comes on here for advice and to engage in a community formed around a common interest that if they dont conform to your rigid rules then they are personally degraded and insulted.
You could have helped me find a YF male and, whilst not agreeing with, could have aided with advice rearing my chicks, but after what has been aimed at me in this thread I will be on the first train out of here and you can all sit back knowing that instead of helping the breed you have alienated someone who could have been a valuable breeder (after an initial mistake) in the future.
If you've taken offence then so be it, i'm not trying to attack you personally and the main problem here is that you came for advice, got it and willfully chose to ignore it. If you had shown some sense of responsibility i could have given you a male y/f but as it stands I wouldn't sell one to you at any price.
If that seems harsh then you need to understand that what you are doing is irresponsible and until you understand that, my opinion of you won't change. On the other hand, if you do the right thing, then there's no reason to hold grudges and we can all move on in a more positive way.
I'm afraid i hold strong opinions on this because most of the birds i see in this part of the UK are obvious hybrids and you are just determined to help undermine any attempts to keep the species separate.
BTW, it doesnt matter that the pairing was accidental, the result is your responsibility.
Manders - i fully understand where you are coming from, and i do admit the situation is not ideal.
BUT....I dont feel I can compromise my very long term belief in this instance. I am not doing it out of pure stubborness or disregard for the breed and I appreciate why it is hard for you all to understand why I stand by my moral (or should that be religious) beliefs.
I have bred, reared and kept a wide variety of animals for many years, even assisted in setting up the countries first breed club for one animal i kept (and was the first person in the country to show this animal at the National show), but through it all my no cull policy has been steadfast. I have been fortunate that I breed good animals and a sickly weak creature is very rare. Any that do have a health issue have remained here with me as pets or been placed with friends who understand the animal.
I am very taken with Kakarikis and now I am aware of their status in their homeland I am keen to get into breeding pure Yellow Fronted birds.
I have stated before , Manders has expressed the the policy of responsable breeders around the world, and the policy here.
If u find Manders comment unpleasant, and mine, and the general kakarki community then maybe you should reassess your morality.
And as breeders your non policy on "cull" is also very misgiuded.
It is this sort of irresponsable nonsence that has created generic defects in breeding lines of dogs cats , many species of pets to the extent it has become generic within those breeds.
ng
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BTW, it doesnt matter that the pairing was accidental, the result is your responsibility.
Exactly..and your "morality" is no more than an excuse for not taking that responsabity seriously.
Steps _________________ My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
sjames I hope you can understand us because I think everyone here at some point or another have been "cheated" with hybrids.
I understand your position about not wanting to kill the eggs because it's your belief that they are living beings, but then imho I think you should keep any chicks that hatch, and not make them available as pets. Chances are that someone that buys one eventually wants to get him a companion, eventually they breed and the circle continues.
I also have a hard time culling defective birds, but those I choose not to cull I keep them and not breed with them. Except when I think the animal is not having a normal life. For instance I have a cockatiel with 1 wing, but another cockatiel that had some sort of epileptic attacks and did not see properly I ended up culling her. Same as whenever I see a runt chick... so far I kept them until they ended up dying but I'm thinking next time to cull them because I don't think they live a good life, who knows if they are in pain. In the wild natural selection would take care of them pretty quick, I think when we keep an animal under our care maybe there are times we should take a step forward, and not hide behind moral stuff.
If we go really deep into ethics, what's the ethics of keeping an animal confined inside a cage? Far from their natural habitat? Feeding them what we want when we want...
I'm coming to the conclusion we are reaching a point that whenever we want to be vague and lazy we have the perfect excuse of moral and ethics, but we set their limits where it's comfy for us. I even find myself doing it sometimes.
The problem isn't so big in Europe as it is in NZ, as NZ is their natural homeland, but nevertheless I can tell you it's not nice to go buy a bird and find out later that it's an hybrid.
And I'm glad you admit you made a mistake by letting them breed in the first place. A lot of people can't even reach that conclusion, when you tell them they are breeding hybrids and that's not right, they choose to ignore you. _________________ AD ASTRA PER ASPERA
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