Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:31 am Post subject: Kak has been not normal.
Hi, I have 20 yrs experiance with male kaks as pets.
I have a pair of 12yr old brothers I've had as spoiled pets.
Two weeks ago, one was not happy it was morning. He is usually the first one up.
Then I noticed he was having a tougher time flying.
I see nothing in the eyes, nostrils are fine, feathers are fine, don't see anything in his poop with the naked eye. Feet are on the cool side, not hot.
He was still. eating drinking,running and flying but the upside down climbing was laboured.
I guessed he took a major tumble off a perch while sleeping and hurt himself.
Thought if it was a bug, his brother would be sick too.
This morning though he looked aweful. He was out of the cage before lights on the floor covered in fluff. Never in 20 yrs have I found a kak on the floor in the dark first thing in the morning.
Now comes, he's not eating. He sits in front of the food dish, but not the pig he usually is. He's usually after his brother's stuff too.
His wings are sitting low on the sides and seems to be breathing heavy, but I hear no noise.
I've been able to fiqure out kak whoas before, but I'm stumped.
Usually there's feather loss, fluids running out, sounds they make
to give a clue of a sick bird.
But there's a saying-if a bird looks sick, it's too late.
That's why I always keep a look out.
I'm just hoping he gets better and is not on the way out.
Don't think his brother would be happy either.
Maybe he took another tumble while sleeping and is just way tired this morning.
That's what I'm hoping for.
A tumble while sleeping is highly unkilely, birds are far more robust than that.
I would suspect he has eaten something from around the home...maybe as simple as something lie a few insects that have been kilee with fly spray???? _________________ My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
I've seen my kaks fall off their perch. I've also caught them on the bottom of the cage in the morning because they fell off the perch during the night.
I'm guessing the silly bird fell off the perch, through the open cage door, landed on the floor in the dark and then went to where the streetlight shines in, where I found him in the morning.
Once I saw he was drinking and eating, I went to work and then came home at lunch to check on him.
Well, he's seems a lot better than when I posted, but he's not 100%
He seems to have trouble climbing upsidedown and hopping perch to perch.
He still flys and can climb straight up no problem.
I've feed my kaks only Hagan store bought cockatiel 'gormet' food [picky eaters] along with a little Hagan budgie treat [one loves it, not the one w/ the problem] Then veggies, carrots, broccolli, celery, green beans. Fruit, like apples, grapes.
They are pets. They are never locked up. If they want to sit in the sun, there's windows. The temp is always 70-72F and no drafts.
OK, so NOW at least I see a visable problem. I just saw a ball of poop hanging out his butt.
Wasn't there yesterday, and I've seen him drink, so it's not total dehydration.
NEVER saw that one yet. I think he's bunged up.
Would some watered down human over the counter stuff help?
Anyone seen the ball of poop hanging out?
Well, about 5 minutes after I posted, I checked him out and the poop ball was gone. I checked all 4 cages and the poop tray and couldn't find a big ball.
Was gonna get it and follow the posted instructions for worms.
But it it's worms, what would be the trouble hopping perch to perch and climbing upside down do with it.
I know both of kaks are klutz's, so the hurting himself is still an option.
He still looks a lot better than at original posting.
Also if it was worms, shouldn't both get it? They eat the same stuff out of each others dishes.
Reading posts above my immediate thought was worms..
Just because one shows symtoms and the other not means nothing
There is a stickey thread here how to check for worms using a childs microscope, plus pics of different type of worms and drugs etc.
And just because a bird is inside doesnt mean u are not going to carry worms, mites what ever in on your shoes.
Quote:
But it it's worms, what would be the trouble hopping perch to perch and climbing upside down do with it.
Worms such a hell of a lot of energy out of the food the bird eats, makes them run down, lathargic, and imagine u have worms in your gut, stomach cramps...it would be very difficult to climb a rock face to say the least.
If a common type of worm then a drop of invermectin sheep on the back of the neck skin and a repeat 10 to 12 days later will fix the problem.
THEN I strongly suggest to clean cages etc and mist spray with 50/50 vinigar and water, and include in routine mite/ worm maintance every 3 or 4 weeks.....Plus mix in a few teaspoons of apple cider vinger in the veggies at least once a week.
You mention falling off perches....in 30 odd yrs, keeping kakariki as a pet, and breeding I have never seen a fit bird fall off a perch....In saying that we have never had skiny wooden dowel perches either, but rather branches varing in diam from at least 1" up to 3 or 4 " .
If they have been doing so for a long time, they could also have had worms for a very long time. _________________ My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
I have another opinion about this. Birds that fall off their perch have often a Calcium deficiency. This can be caused by parasites. In that case the bird must be losing weight and having diarrhea. Check him by holding him in your hand.
Another point that I'm missing in these birds diet is vitamin D3. In my opinion this is the most underestimated/overlooked nutritional substance, and not only for birds. One off his functions is the regulation of Calcium and Phosphate. Vitamin D3 which is actually a hormone can easily be made by the body and that is the point where it goes wrong. It requires direct sunlight. Windows act as a filter.
The only foodsource I know off which can be of use is eggyolk. Eggfood contains also a small amount of vitamin D3. Exact figures about the daily allowance are unknown. Even in humans there is no clear consensus on this matter. What is certain is that people who live further away from the equador or have to stay away out of the sun for some reason, have a higher chance to develope a range of diseases. Going from osteomalacia, cancer, auto-immunity diseases, depression, multiple sclerosis etc.
The recommended daily amounts for humans are varying from 200 to 800 international units or 5 to 20 micrograms. On a sunny day the human skin produces in 20 minutes 20000 IU. That's a hundredfold of the RDA.
I have no idea how much vitamin D a Kakariki can produce in full sunlight but you can imagine something of the above.
It is my understanding the vit D deficiency tends to be a long term before having any effect....which in this case, long term inside pets is very likely.
I have read about this sort of deficiency in office workers, night shift workers and those who live close to the poles with 24 hr winter nights.
Thinking this thru NZ has a huge UV component in its sunlight, one of the highest anywhere in the world....It just could be due to this kakariki and other native animals have a low or slow intake/absorbstion.
I would go with Peters suggestion about sunlight, and since vit D deficiency also effects resistance to parasites (worm/mites etc) follow up on the worming.
Personally Im not a fan of aftermarket foods...and dont use them, because we have our own veggie garden, fruit trees and native plants/trees, plus cook with fresh veggies. This provides a yr round 2x a day CONSISTANT/VARIED diet....Covered in the "what do you feed...." sticky thread. _________________ My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
If a common type of worm then a drop of invermectin sheep on the back of the neck skin and a repeat 10 to 12 days later will fix the problem.
And why on the back of the neck skin?
He looked better yesterday, but now this morning at 8:30 am he's sound asleep with the head tucked in. Never saw him sleeping so late. Must have had a bad night trying to sleep.
I'll look for a miroscope, but in the meantime it looks like worms.
Again, 20yrs in kaks and NEVER had this, so I'm lost.
2. Ivermectin (Ivomec Sheep Drench)
Do not use the cattle formulation as it is fat-soluble and must be diluted with propylene glycol before use. The sheep preparation is water-soluble but must be protected from light. It is effective against some roundworms, lice and mites (including air sac mite and scaly face mite).
It can cause nerve damage at doses just above the effective dose so use carefully. It must be changed daily to remain effective. There has been high levels of resistance to ivermectin develop in bird roundworms.
Crop dose: 200 micrograms/ kg. Dilute 1:10 with water and then give at 0.25mls/100g bodyweight by crop daily for 3 days
In water dose: 5mls per litre of water for 5 days. Repeat in 2 weeks.
So can someone dumb this down so I don't OD poor Dallas?
What does a grown/healthy kak weigh? I don't have a quality medical scale, so what is 200 micrograms?
Is there something in the wild that kaks use /eat also that helps.
Now, the falling off perches with mine, one was born with 3 nails missing on his right foot and 2 off the left. He's the one who does the falling off the barrel routine once in a while.
And then I've seen them do the big stretch, and loose their balance.
It's not a everyday thing, but in 12 yrs with these 2, I've seen it.
Now comes another thing, can the healthy one eat/drink the medicine and be OK?
The original plan 12 yrs ago was to sell one, and keep the other, but when I tried to seperate them, I've never seen small kaks just go insane.
I had one upstairs and the other downstairs. They just kept screaming, I could see them tilting their head to hear their brother.
One kept drop kicking the cage door. The other was trying to bend the bars on the cage.
Got to the point I was worried they were gonna hurt them selfselves bad.
So, it's not gonna be easy to seperate the two.
Also when I ws training them, the punishment for being 'bad' was being locked in the cage.
Well the other one would just try to break in after a while to join his brother.
So if I tried to keep the sick one in a locked cage, his brother wouldn't be happy at all.
Well, so far if I wanted a bird vet, not until Tues.
The best around retired on me, so there's only a couple bird vets in my area.
Could it be constipation instead of worms?
I'm in frozen Canada, and all the outdoor bugs are dead or hibernating. So dragging worms in on the bottom of the shoes is a little far fetched, and I never wear outdoor shoes with the birds.
I know they bite things they shouldn't like the blinds, cage cover, took a bite out of a lamp shade. Maybe he took a bite and it doesn't want to pass?
I'm gonna do the medical cleaning of everything to start.
Gonna look for a micoscope and supplies and try that.
Been thinking of taking a poop sample to the vet and just pay this time.
Gotta get the medicine from a vet anyways.
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