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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - Spangle/Marbled/Gezoomd/Gesaumt mutation discussion
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Spangle/Marbled/Gezoomd/Gesaumt mutation discussion
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Peter
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:03 am    Post subject:

Hi Craig,

What do you mean with Spangles? I only know this mutation from Budgies. Can you show a pic?
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Craig
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:15 am    Post subject:

Hi Peter,

The spangle mutation in kakarikis is very new - pictures on my website: parakeets285.weebly.com.
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Peter
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:34 am    Post subject:

Hi Craig,
This mutation looks very similar to the 'gesaumt' (edged) mutation in Germany. They are born with white down and have black eyes. From what I hear from breeders it is allelic with the Black Eyed Yellow mutation. So Gesaumt x Black Eyed Yellow results in intermediate birds.
4 years ago they were sold for 1500 /pair. About 1,250.00 GBP
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Craig
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:58 pm    Post subject:

Spangles only appeared here at the Stafford show in 2010, and we bought some in 2011. As they are available in both single and double factors, they seem to be a dominant mutation. In fact, they seem to work in exactly the same way as spangles in budgies as the double factor mutation produces an almost all over body colour.

We have a few pairs to breed from this year so will hopefully be able to find out how the genetics work. The only problem is that they seem to be a yellow fronted mutation rather than red fronted, hence the need for more yellow fronted hens.
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Peter
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:16 am    Post subject:

Craig wrote:
As they are available in both single and double factors, they seem to be a dominant mutation. In fact, they seem to work in exactly the same way as spangles in budgies as the double factor mutation produces an almost all over body colour.

.


I've heard the same thing about the *gesaumt* mutation. The funny thing is that a mutation can only be dominant as it behaves that way compared to the wildtype. Pure wilds are rare. Most of the available yellow fronteds are black eyed yellow or are split to it. That is why the *gesaumt* mutation appears dominant which it isn't. I know of only one breeder who paired the mutation to a pure wild. The offspring were green birds. This means it is recessive.
In my opinion it is a unique mutation. There is a similarity with the Spangle but there are some differences. For example the black eyes.

Source: http://grassittiche-schieder.de/40573.html

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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:35 am    Post subject:

As many of u areawhere, I have no experiance in mutations...only wilds
A couple things from the above.
1/ The pic, and yes colours pics are not acruate, but if that wils was in my avairies I would strongly suspect it has red crown blood ..mainly due to the coluur of the crown...pure yellows are far more yellow...like the 'spangle' on the left...Also , a this is contoversial/under assement, the pale spot behind the eye maybe should not be there, and if it is not as strong as that.

Quote:
Most of the available yellow fronteds are black eyed yellow

2/As we have no mutations red or yellow crown we have never seen a wild with anything other than a orange or orangy red iris.
3/All the wild yellows do tend to be slightly lighter overall body than the right yellow crown above which is far more like our wild red crowns.

The yellow on the left, is that a very young bird? Asking because unlike reds, yellows tend to have a very 'weak' yellow and less defined untill after a couple moults when the crown becomes well defined and a yellow very similar the left one.

To my untrained mutation eye/person the spangled above seems to be a normal wild just a little more pale, that if was in my avairies I would expect to get a bit more colour (along with the crown) over the next couple moults.

Cheers
Steps

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Peter
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:41 am    Post subject:

Steps, the bird above is a darker shade of the mutation.
From the same site. 3x 8 weeks old chicks. Left the *gesaumt* mutation. In the middle a normal. On the right a pied.
But we deviate from what this is all about. Craig is looking for Spangles.

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Craig
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:04 pm    Post subject:

I think as with a lot of kakariki mutations, few people are 100% sure as to how the various combinations work, but I hope to find out a bit more about the spangle with pairs I have this year.

Admin - I don't know if it is possible to move all or most of this thread (aside from my initial wanted advert) to the "Mutations" forum as I think it would be better placed there?
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:26 pm    Post subject:

Yes it is possible.....Life for the moment is very busy, its down on the get to list.
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pabloc
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:44 am    Post subject:

Steptoe wrote:
Yes it is possible.....Life for the moment is very busy, its down on the get to list.

you can tick it off

self applause Applause



ok, enough applause and praise for me, thank you very much, and back to topic... signlol

Peter, some dominant mutations can be devious, for instance dominant edged in cockatiels, darker type birds can easily be mistaken for wildcolor.
Then in kakariki we have the added difficulty of the pied mutation, so a wildcolor bird split to pied, or with minor pied markings can present a lighter color.
Do you know how many clutches/chicks this gentleman has pulled?

On the other hand I wouldn't discard the theory of this mutation in kakariki being allelic to the recessive pied mutation, neither that it could be the spangle mutation and thus that it can be mistaken for the 100% recessive pied with black eyes.
In any case most of the pictures I have seen of this mutation have a lot yellow in the belly/chest, and I think they are probably pied.

In some places like vogelarena they have been also advertised as opaline, but I think it's more of a marketing thing.

The drop in price has been amazing. I think in NL now they are sold for 100 or even less.

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Peter
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:17 pm    Post subject:

pabloc wrote:

Do you know how many clutches/chicks this gentleman has pulled?



Sorry, I don't know much about this breeder since I found no email adres to contact him.
The intriguing thing about this mutation is that there is no equivalent in other species. At first sight it seems that there is a degree of dillution in the feathers. If we assume that the dark eyed yellow, where it has an allelic relation with, is in fact a dark eyed clear then we have to consider this mutation as an allele of the recessive Ino locus. The only mutation I know in that group which has a dilutive feature is the 'Pastel'. The difference is that with this mutation the eyes and feet remain unaffected.
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-prot-
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 1:49 am    Post subject:

No spangel but EDGED Shocked
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pabloc
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:52 am    Post subject:

-prot- wrote:
No spangel but EDGED Shocked


Prot, can you elaborate, please?
Do you breed the mutation or have you come across a different reasoning?


Btw... what is the situation of this new yellow fronted mutation? Is it getting established and price has got closer to the other birds?

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-prot-
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:12 am    Post subject:

[/img]https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=459838140766197&set=pb.100002200457429.-2207520000.1370470116.&type=3&theater
price in NI from 100 a pair
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Peter
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:15 am    Post subject:

Hey Pablo,
Aside of the black eyes. Don't they look similar like the pied pattern in your red crowns?
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